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Explain the objections to these measures against human trafficking


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10















In the state I live there are some measures being discussed that are meant to combat human trafficking. A couple of the ones I've heard are:




  1. One is to close down illicit massage parlors


  2. Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)



Now, I've heard that there is some controversy to these suggestions. Some say that 1 will force victims out onto the streets and into more dangerous situations. I don't understand this objection as I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue.



An objection to 2 I heard was that 2 would put victims at higher risk of retribution from traffickers, and that it should only be done with the consent of the victim. This too I do not understand, as I thought there would be discretion on part of the law and that victims might have a hard time speaking up.



Could someone explain the measures and the objections further? Some of these come from advocacy groups and while I value their insight and respect their work I have a hard time fully understanding. I don't know how to ask but I would also appreciate hearing any other aspects of the debate too










share|improve this question


















  • 2





    "...I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue" In a perfect world, yes. However, just as in instances where children obviously need to be removed from an abusive situation, people fall through the cracks. This is neither an argument for nor against the proposal in question, just elaborating on the realities of the situation.

    – John Doe
    13 hours ago






  • 2





    Looking at your profile, it seems the state you're asking about is Florida. The second proposal you list is most likely SB 540, but it's unclear to me whether the first is the same one or a different one entirely. Adding this here to help potential answerers.

    – Jeff Lambert
    13 hours ago






  • 3





    Probably the objection about forcing the victims into the street are not necessarily about the specific victims in any one massage parlor, as much as the general population and potential future victims.

    – PoloHoleSet
    11 hours ago
















10















In the state I live there are some measures being discussed that are meant to combat human trafficking. A couple of the ones I've heard are:




  1. One is to close down illicit massage parlors


  2. Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)



Now, I've heard that there is some controversy to these suggestions. Some say that 1 will force victims out onto the streets and into more dangerous situations. I don't understand this objection as I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue.



An objection to 2 I heard was that 2 would put victims at higher risk of retribution from traffickers, and that it should only be done with the consent of the victim. This too I do not understand, as I thought there would be discretion on part of the law and that victims might have a hard time speaking up.



Could someone explain the measures and the objections further? Some of these come from advocacy groups and while I value their insight and respect their work I have a hard time fully understanding. I don't know how to ask but I would also appreciate hearing any other aspects of the debate too










share|improve this question


















  • 2





    "...I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue" In a perfect world, yes. However, just as in instances where children obviously need to be removed from an abusive situation, people fall through the cracks. This is neither an argument for nor against the proposal in question, just elaborating on the realities of the situation.

    – John Doe
    13 hours ago






  • 2





    Looking at your profile, it seems the state you're asking about is Florida. The second proposal you list is most likely SB 540, but it's unclear to me whether the first is the same one or a different one entirely. Adding this here to help potential answerers.

    – Jeff Lambert
    13 hours ago






  • 3





    Probably the objection about forcing the victims into the street are not necessarily about the specific victims in any one massage parlor, as much as the general population and potential future victims.

    – PoloHoleSet
    11 hours ago














10












10








10








In the state I live there are some measures being discussed that are meant to combat human trafficking. A couple of the ones I've heard are:




  1. One is to close down illicit massage parlors


  2. Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)



Now, I've heard that there is some controversy to these suggestions. Some say that 1 will force victims out onto the streets and into more dangerous situations. I don't understand this objection as I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue.



An objection to 2 I heard was that 2 would put victims at higher risk of retribution from traffickers, and that it should only be done with the consent of the victim. This too I do not understand, as I thought there would be discretion on part of the law and that victims might have a hard time speaking up.



Could someone explain the measures and the objections further? Some of these come from advocacy groups and while I value their insight and respect their work I have a hard time fully understanding. I don't know how to ask but I would also appreciate hearing any other aspects of the debate too










share|improve this question














In the state I live there are some measures being discussed that are meant to combat human trafficking. A couple of the ones I've heard are:




  1. One is to close down illicit massage parlors


  2. Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)



Now, I've heard that there is some controversy to these suggestions. Some say that 1 will force victims out onto the streets and into more dangerous situations. I don't understand this objection as I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue.



An objection to 2 I heard was that 2 would put victims at higher risk of retribution from traffickers, and that it should only be done with the consent of the victim. This too I do not understand, as I thought there would be discretion on part of the law and that victims might have a hard time speaking up.



Could someone explain the measures and the objections further? Some of these come from advocacy groups and while I value their insight and respect their work I have a hard time fully understanding. I don't know how to ask but I would also appreciate hearing any other aspects of the debate too







united-states human-trafficking






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 13 hours ago









user1675016user1675016

494210




494210








  • 2





    "...I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue" In a perfect world, yes. However, just as in instances where children obviously need to be removed from an abusive situation, people fall through the cracks. This is neither an argument for nor against the proposal in question, just elaborating on the realities of the situation.

    – John Doe
    13 hours ago






  • 2





    Looking at your profile, it seems the state you're asking about is Florida. The second proposal you list is most likely SB 540, but it's unclear to me whether the first is the same one or a different one entirely. Adding this here to help potential answerers.

    – Jeff Lambert
    13 hours ago






  • 3





    Probably the objection about forcing the victims into the street are not necessarily about the specific victims in any one massage parlor, as much as the general population and potential future victims.

    – PoloHoleSet
    11 hours ago














  • 2





    "...I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue" In a perfect world, yes. However, just as in instances where children obviously need to be removed from an abusive situation, people fall through the cracks. This is neither an argument for nor against the proposal in question, just elaborating on the realities of the situation.

    – John Doe
    13 hours ago






  • 2





    Looking at your profile, it seems the state you're asking about is Florida. The second proposal you list is most likely SB 540, but it's unclear to me whether the first is the same one or a different one entirely. Adding this here to help potential answerers.

    – Jeff Lambert
    13 hours ago






  • 3





    Probably the objection about forcing the victims into the street are not necessarily about the specific victims in any one massage parlor, as much as the general population and potential future victims.

    – PoloHoleSet
    11 hours ago








2




2





"...I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue" In a perfect world, yes. However, just as in instances where children obviously need to be removed from an abusive situation, people fall through the cracks. This is neither an argument for nor against the proposal in question, just elaborating on the realities of the situation.

– John Doe
13 hours ago





"...I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue" In a perfect world, yes. However, just as in instances where children obviously need to be removed from an abusive situation, people fall through the cracks. This is neither an argument for nor against the proposal in question, just elaborating on the realities of the situation.

– John Doe
13 hours ago




2




2





Looking at your profile, it seems the state you're asking about is Florida. The second proposal you list is most likely SB 540, but it's unclear to me whether the first is the same one or a different one entirely. Adding this here to help potential answerers.

– Jeff Lambert
13 hours ago





Looking at your profile, it seems the state you're asking about is Florida. The second proposal you list is most likely SB 540, but it's unclear to me whether the first is the same one or a different one entirely. Adding this here to help potential answerers.

– Jeff Lambert
13 hours ago




3




3





Probably the objection about forcing the victims into the street are not necessarily about the specific victims in any one massage parlor, as much as the general population and potential future victims.

– PoloHoleSet
11 hours ago





Probably the objection about forcing the victims into the street are not necessarily about the specific victims in any one massage parlor, as much as the general population and potential future victims.

– PoloHoleSet
11 hours ago










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















17














For case 1, the unstated assumptions are that prostitution will take place regardless of the government's attempts to stop it, and even if there are illicit massage parlors populated with victims of human trafficking, there are also illicit massage parlors with voluntary prostitutes. The voluntary prostitutes will not be "rescued" because, they don't need "rescuing" and if they keep doing sex work they will do it elsewhere. There are many values of "elsewhere" more dangerous for the prostitute and less desirable for society than an illicit massage parlor, e.g. city streets.



For case 2, most mandatory reporting laws require that the mandatory reporter's personally identifying information be taken and made available. This information may be published to other law enforcement personnel and may appear in court documents depending on how a case proceeds. The reporter therefore can be subject to intimidation. Also, if you know who the reporter is, it is a trivial exercise for a criminal organization to determine when and where that person works and therefore determine who is likely to be the victim that caused the report to be filed.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1





    For case #1, I've always found it rather difficult to understand why "human trafficing" would be involved at all in "normal" prostitution. (Obviously child porn &c could be different.) It would seem far more efficient simply to hire willing workers, rather than to maintain a substantial network of thugs &c.

    – jamesqf
    11 hours ago






  • 6





    @jamesqf The fact that's not what happens would seem to belie the notion it's more efficient. || If you have the muscle, it's cheaper to force someone to do something for you than it is to pay them money. Many people get caught up in these things out of desperation, or a chance to get to a 1st world country. If you pay them money, they can quit. Human traffickers are bad people ... it's no wonder they don't think of wages and balance sheets like you do behind your desk.

    – Azor Ahai
    11 hours ago






  • 1





    @jamesqf Prostitution is illegal, which you can imagine as a minimum wage of infinity on sex work. If human traffickers are willing to smuggle people into the United States to pick lettuce at $5 to $10/hr less than the minimum wage, imagine how willing they would be to smuggle women in to have sex at infinity less than the minimum wage.

    – Joe
    10 hours ago






  • 2





    @Joe A minimum wage of infinity dollars would be quite high

    – Azor Ahai
    10 hours ago






  • 6





    San Francisco had a spike of streetwalking and trafficking as a result of similar laws

    – AShelly
    9 hours ago





















13















Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)




To add to the other answers, one problem with this is that is causes severe problems for people with uncommon family structures that frequently can resemble human trafficking to well-meaning, but untrained, people. This is particularly a problem for people who have adopted children of a different race or people whose children don't look very much like them.



Young black men tend to fit a stereotype of a human trafficker more than a middle-aged white person would. So a young black man with a daughter who looks white may be reported to police while a middle-aged white man with a daughter who looks white may not be in an otherwise identical situation. These types of situations tend to occur in hotels as parents may be carrying a child who passed out in the car, children may throw temper tantrums, and so on. These kinds of events are often not handled particularly well by police and there are some horror stories involving children separated from their parents and interrogated in ways that severely affected them.



The problem is simply that people whose families just happen to resemble untrained people's stereotypes of human trafficking will wind up having unpleasant encounters with police in situations involving them and their small children. It's like police stopping people who "don't look like they belong in this neighborhood", but worse.



Will specific employees be trained in recognizing actual signs of human trafficking or coerced sex work and accurately reply their suspicions to police? Or will every employee be told to report anything they think as suspicious, based on their personal life experiences and biases about what a family looks like, in a way that doesn't accurately convey the possibility of innocent explanations? The former might be unobjectionable, but the fear is that we'll actually get the latter.






share|improve this answer





















  • 3





    Police can barely handle the idea of black people not being inherently dangerous, we definitely shouldn't trust whoever happens to be working at your local Marriott to make that call.

    – Azor Ahai
    6 hours ago



















8














One issue with the second proposal as you've phrased it is that hotel workers run the gamut from cleaners to managers; is every hotel worker supposed to get training on recognizing human trafficking at a glance? How effective is that training, in reality?



I imagine many hotels have high turnover rates, so I would expect the industry to object on the cost of training all employees to spot human trafficking.



Third, I would also expect the industry to be reticent to start accusing their patrons of human trafficking - especially those with wealthy clientele - even if they don't state it publicly. Imagine the media storm if a Hilton accused a parent of trafficking based on the skin color and appearance of their adopted child.






share|improve this answer
























  • On top of that, the employees could be illegal immigrants and depending on the location helping stop human trafficking could lead to their own deportation. That would incentivize them to look the other way even if that is not the right thing to do.

    – Reed
    9 hours ago






  • 4





    Anecdotal evidence, but from talking to a police officer, the ability of hotel workers to recognize sex trafficking ranges from "bad joke" to "highly counterproductive". Every single case of "child prostitution" he'd been sent to investigate turned out to be a father traveling with his daughter (most often, black father with light-skinned daughter), while adult prostitution was either father/teenage daughter, or college-age couple (again, with an over-representation of mixed-race pairs).

    – Mark
    9 hours ago











  • @Mark Yes, that was my impression from the class I took on human trafficking.

    – Azor Ahai
    9 hours ago



















5














The measures you're describing don't target trafficking, but sex work. They mean that sex workers will move away from high-visibility areas where they're less likely to come to harm but are more likely to be noticed by the authorities, and into more dangerous situations.



For example, if they can't work out of hotels without getting arrested for being a victim of trafficking (and yes, despite being the ostensible victim, they're often arrested), then they'll bring their clients back to their houses instead, with obvious risks if a client feels entitled to more than is being offered.



Sex workers are more likely to turn to any source of protection, which will lead to them being more likely to be trafficked.



All of this is also ignoring the fact that most trafficking victims in the US are not sex workers but domestic staff. It's attacking the wrong problem and then using the worst possible approach to do so.






share|improve this answer








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Ross Thompson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. - "worst possible approach" +1 but not if their goal is anti-sex work, then it's a great one....

    – Mazura
    2 hours ago



















0















Some say that [closing down illicit massage parlors] will force victims out onto the streets and into more
dangerous situations. I don't understand this objection as I had
imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue.




The thing to keep in mind is that people respond to incentives. If the government shuts down too many massage parlors, pimps will move their operations before their parlors are shut down. At the very least, new operations will be less likely to use massage parlors.



The magnitude of this effect depends on the cost of moving and the level of enforcement, but at least in theory, the number of prostitutes who move to the street may be much higher than the number who are arrested and/or rescued. (The fact that not all prostitutes are coerced has already been brought up.)






share|improve this answer








New contributor




ZTaylor is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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5 Answers
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active

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5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









17














For case 1, the unstated assumptions are that prostitution will take place regardless of the government's attempts to stop it, and even if there are illicit massage parlors populated with victims of human trafficking, there are also illicit massage parlors with voluntary prostitutes. The voluntary prostitutes will not be "rescued" because, they don't need "rescuing" and if they keep doing sex work they will do it elsewhere. There are many values of "elsewhere" more dangerous for the prostitute and less desirable for society than an illicit massage parlor, e.g. city streets.



For case 2, most mandatory reporting laws require that the mandatory reporter's personally identifying information be taken and made available. This information may be published to other law enforcement personnel and may appear in court documents depending on how a case proceeds. The reporter therefore can be subject to intimidation. Also, if you know who the reporter is, it is a trivial exercise for a criminal organization to determine when and where that person works and therefore determine who is likely to be the victim that caused the report to be filed.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1





    For case #1, I've always found it rather difficult to understand why "human trafficing" would be involved at all in "normal" prostitution. (Obviously child porn &c could be different.) It would seem far more efficient simply to hire willing workers, rather than to maintain a substantial network of thugs &c.

    – jamesqf
    11 hours ago






  • 6





    @jamesqf The fact that's not what happens would seem to belie the notion it's more efficient. || If you have the muscle, it's cheaper to force someone to do something for you than it is to pay them money. Many people get caught up in these things out of desperation, or a chance to get to a 1st world country. If you pay them money, they can quit. Human traffickers are bad people ... it's no wonder they don't think of wages and balance sheets like you do behind your desk.

    – Azor Ahai
    11 hours ago






  • 1





    @jamesqf Prostitution is illegal, which you can imagine as a minimum wage of infinity on sex work. If human traffickers are willing to smuggle people into the United States to pick lettuce at $5 to $10/hr less than the minimum wage, imagine how willing they would be to smuggle women in to have sex at infinity less than the minimum wage.

    – Joe
    10 hours ago






  • 2





    @Joe A minimum wage of infinity dollars would be quite high

    – Azor Ahai
    10 hours ago






  • 6





    San Francisco had a spike of streetwalking and trafficking as a result of similar laws

    – AShelly
    9 hours ago


















17














For case 1, the unstated assumptions are that prostitution will take place regardless of the government's attempts to stop it, and even if there are illicit massage parlors populated with victims of human trafficking, there are also illicit massage parlors with voluntary prostitutes. The voluntary prostitutes will not be "rescued" because, they don't need "rescuing" and if they keep doing sex work they will do it elsewhere. There are many values of "elsewhere" more dangerous for the prostitute and less desirable for society than an illicit massage parlor, e.g. city streets.



For case 2, most mandatory reporting laws require that the mandatory reporter's personally identifying information be taken and made available. This information may be published to other law enforcement personnel and may appear in court documents depending on how a case proceeds. The reporter therefore can be subject to intimidation. Also, if you know who the reporter is, it is a trivial exercise for a criminal organization to determine when and where that person works and therefore determine who is likely to be the victim that caused the report to be filed.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1





    For case #1, I've always found it rather difficult to understand why "human trafficing" would be involved at all in "normal" prostitution. (Obviously child porn &c could be different.) It would seem far more efficient simply to hire willing workers, rather than to maintain a substantial network of thugs &c.

    – jamesqf
    11 hours ago






  • 6





    @jamesqf The fact that's not what happens would seem to belie the notion it's more efficient. || If you have the muscle, it's cheaper to force someone to do something for you than it is to pay them money. Many people get caught up in these things out of desperation, or a chance to get to a 1st world country. If you pay them money, they can quit. Human traffickers are bad people ... it's no wonder they don't think of wages and balance sheets like you do behind your desk.

    – Azor Ahai
    11 hours ago






  • 1





    @jamesqf Prostitution is illegal, which you can imagine as a minimum wage of infinity on sex work. If human traffickers are willing to smuggle people into the United States to pick lettuce at $5 to $10/hr less than the minimum wage, imagine how willing they would be to smuggle women in to have sex at infinity less than the minimum wage.

    – Joe
    10 hours ago






  • 2





    @Joe A minimum wage of infinity dollars would be quite high

    – Azor Ahai
    10 hours ago






  • 6





    San Francisco had a spike of streetwalking and trafficking as a result of similar laws

    – AShelly
    9 hours ago
















17












17








17







For case 1, the unstated assumptions are that prostitution will take place regardless of the government's attempts to stop it, and even if there are illicit massage parlors populated with victims of human trafficking, there are also illicit massage parlors with voluntary prostitutes. The voluntary prostitutes will not be "rescued" because, they don't need "rescuing" and if they keep doing sex work they will do it elsewhere. There are many values of "elsewhere" more dangerous for the prostitute and less desirable for society than an illicit massage parlor, e.g. city streets.



For case 2, most mandatory reporting laws require that the mandatory reporter's personally identifying information be taken and made available. This information may be published to other law enforcement personnel and may appear in court documents depending on how a case proceeds. The reporter therefore can be subject to intimidation. Also, if you know who the reporter is, it is a trivial exercise for a criminal organization to determine when and where that person works and therefore determine who is likely to be the victim that caused the report to be filed.






share|improve this answer













For case 1, the unstated assumptions are that prostitution will take place regardless of the government's attempts to stop it, and even if there are illicit massage parlors populated with victims of human trafficking, there are also illicit massage parlors with voluntary prostitutes. The voluntary prostitutes will not be "rescued" because, they don't need "rescuing" and if they keep doing sex work they will do it elsewhere. There are many values of "elsewhere" more dangerous for the prostitute and less desirable for society than an illicit massage parlor, e.g. city streets.



For case 2, most mandatory reporting laws require that the mandatory reporter's personally identifying information be taken and made available. This information may be published to other law enforcement personnel and may appear in court documents depending on how a case proceeds. The reporter therefore can be subject to intimidation. Also, if you know who the reporter is, it is a trivial exercise for a criminal organization to determine when and where that person works and therefore determine who is likely to be the victim that caused the report to be filed.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 13 hours ago









JoeJoe

1,324111




1,324111








  • 1





    For case #1, I've always found it rather difficult to understand why "human trafficing" would be involved at all in "normal" prostitution. (Obviously child porn &c could be different.) It would seem far more efficient simply to hire willing workers, rather than to maintain a substantial network of thugs &c.

    – jamesqf
    11 hours ago






  • 6





    @jamesqf The fact that's not what happens would seem to belie the notion it's more efficient. || If you have the muscle, it's cheaper to force someone to do something for you than it is to pay them money. Many people get caught up in these things out of desperation, or a chance to get to a 1st world country. If you pay them money, they can quit. Human traffickers are bad people ... it's no wonder they don't think of wages and balance sheets like you do behind your desk.

    – Azor Ahai
    11 hours ago






  • 1





    @jamesqf Prostitution is illegal, which you can imagine as a minimum wage of infinity on sex work. If human traffickers are willing to smuggle people into the United States to pick lettuce at $5 to $10/hr less than the minimum wage, imagine how willing they would be to smuggle women in to have sex at infinity less than the minimum wage.

    – Joe
    10 hours ago






  • 2





    @Joe A minimum wage of infinity dollars would be quite high

    – Azor Ahai
    10 hours ago






  • 6





    San Francisco had a spike of streetwalking and trafficking as a result of similar laws

    – AShelly
    9 hours ago
















  • 1





    For case #1, I've always found it rather difficult to understand why "human trafficing" would be involved at all in "normal" prostitution. (Obviously child porn &c could be different.) It would seem far more efficient simply to hire willing workers, rather than to maintain a substantial network of thugs &c.

    – jamesqf
    11 hours ago






  • 6





    @jamesqf The fact that's not what happens would seem to belie the notion it's more efficient. || If you have the muscle, it's cheaper to force someone to do something for you than it is to pay them money. Many people get caught up in these things out of desperation, or a chance to get to a 1st world country. If you pay them money, they can quit. Human traffickers are bad people ... it's no wonder they don't think of wages and balance sheets like you do behind your desk.

    – Azor Ahai
    11 hours ago






  • 1





    @jamesqf Prostitution is illegal, which you can imagine as a minimum wage of infinity on sex work. If human traffickers are willing to smuggle people into the United States to pick lettuce at $5 to $10/hr less than the minimum wage, imagine how willing they would be to smuggle women in to have sex at infinity less than the minimum wage.

    – Joe
    10 hours ago






  • 2





    @Joe A minimum wage of infinity dollars would be quite high

    – Azor Ahai
    10 hours ago






  • 6





    San Francisco had a spike of streetwalking and trafficking as a result of similar laws

    – AShelly
    9 hours ago










1




1





For case #1, I've always found it rather difficult to understand why "human trafficing" would be involved at all in "normal" prostitution. (Obviously child porn &c could be different.) It would seem far more efficient simply to hire willing workers, rather than to maintain a substantial network of thugs &c.

– jamesqf
11 hours ago





For case #1, I've always found it rather difficult to understand why "human trafficing" would be involved at all in "normal" prostitution. (Obviously child porn &c could be different.) It would seem far more efficient simply to hire willing workers, rather than to maintain a substantial network of thugs &c.

– jamesqf
11 hours ago




6




6





@jamesqf The fact that's not what happens would seem to belie the notion it's more efficient. || If you have the muscle, it's cheaper to force someone to do something for you than it is to pay them money. Many people get caught up in these things out of desperation, or a chance to get to a 1st world country. If you pay them money, they can quit. Human traffickers are bad people ... it's no wonder they don't think of wages and balance sheets like you do behind your desk.

– Azor Ahai
11 hours ago





@jamesqf The fact that's not what happens would seem to belie the notion it's more efficient. || If you have the muscle, it's cheaper to force someone to do something for you than it is to pay them money. Many people get caught up in these things out of desperation, or a chance to get to a 1st world country. If you pay them money, they can quit. Human traffickers are bad people ... it's no wonder they don't think of wages and balance sheets like you do behind your desk.

– Azor Ahai
11 hours ago




1




1





@jamesqf Prostitution is illegal, which you can imagine as a minimum wage of infinity on sex work. If human traffickers are willing to smuggle people into the United States to pick lettuce at $5 to $10/hr less than the minimum wage, imagine how willing they would be to smuggle women in to have sex at infinity less than the minimum wage.

– Joe
10 hours ago





@jamesqf Prostitution is illegal, which you can imagine as a minimum wage of infinity on sex work. If human traffickers are willing to smuggle people into the United States to pick lettuce at $5 to $10/hr less than the minimum wage, imagine how willing they would be to smuggle women in to have sex at infinity less than the minimum wage.

– Joe
10 hours ago




2




2





@Joe A minimum wage of infinity dollars would be quite high

– Azor Ahai
10 hours ago





@Joe A minimum wage of infinity dollars would be quite high

– Azor Ahai
10 hours ago




6




6





San Francisco had a spike of streetwalking and trafficking as a result of similar laws

– AShelly
9 hours ago







San Francisco had a spike of streetwalking and trafficking as a result of similar laws

– AShelly
9 hours ago













13















Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)




To add to the other answers, one problem with this is that is causes severe problems for people with uncommon family structures that frequently can resemble human trafficking to well-meaning, but untrained, people. This is particularly a problem for people who have adopted children of a different race or people whose children don't look very much like them.



Young black men tend to fit a stereotype of a human trafficker more than a middle-aged white person would. So a young black man with a daughter who looks white may be reported to police while a middle-aged white man with a daughter who looks white may not be in an otherwise identical situation. These types of situations tend to occur in hotels as parents may be carrying a child who passed out in the car, children may throw temper tantrums, and so on. These kinds of events are often not handled particularly well by police and there are some horror stories involving children separated from their parents and interrogated in ways that severely affected them.



The problem is simply that people whose families just happen to resemble untrained people's stereotypes of human trafficking will wind up having unpleasant encounters with police in situations involving them and their small children. It's like police stopping people who "don't look like they belong in this neighborhood", but worse.



Will specific employees be trained in recognizing actual signs of human trafficking or coerced sex work and accurately reply their suspicions to police? Or will every employee be told to report anything they think as suspicious, based on their personal life experiences and biases about what a family looks like, in a way that doesn't accurately convey the possibility of innocent explanations? The former might be unobjectionable, but the fear is that we'll actually get the latter.






share|improve this answer





















  • 3





    Police can barely handle the idea of black people not being inherently dangerous, we definitely shouldn't trust whoever happens to be working at your local Marriott to make that call.

    – Azor Ahai
    6 hours ago
















13















Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)




To add to the other answers, one problem with this is that is causes severe problems for people with uncommon family structures that frequently can resemble human trafficking to well-meaning, but untrained, people. This is particularly a problem for people who have adopted children of a different race or people whose children don't look very much like them.



Young black men tend to fit a stereotype of a human trafficker more than a middle-aged white person would. So a young black man with a daughter who looks white may be reported to police while a middle-aged white man with a daughter who looks white may not be in an otherwise identical situation. These types of situations tend to occur in hotels as parents may be carrying a child who passed out in the car, children may throw temper tantrums, and so on. These kinds of events are often not handled particularly well by police and there are some horror stories involving children separated from their parents and interrogated in ways that severely affected them.



The problem is simply that people whose families just happen to resemble untrained people's stereotypes of human trafficking will wind up having unpleasant encounters with police in situations involving them and their small children. It's like police stopping people who "don't look like they belong in this neighborhood", but worse.



Will specific employees be trained in recognizing actual signs of human trafficking or coerced sex work and accurately reply their suspicions to police? Or will every employee be told to report anything they think as suspicious, based on their personal life experiences and biases about what a family looks like, in a way that doesn't accurately convey the possibility of innocent explanations? The former might be unobjectionable, but the fear is that we'll actually get the latter.






share|improve this answer





















  • 3





    Police can barely handle the idea of black people not being inherently dangerous, we definitely shouldn't trust whoever happens to be working at your local Marriott to make that call.

    – Azor Ahai
    6 hours ago














13












13








13








Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)




To add to the other answers, one problem with this is that is causes severe problems for people with uncommon family structures that frequently can resemble human trafficking to well-meaning, but untrained, people. This is particularly a problem for people who have adopted children of a different race or people whose children don't look very much like them.



Young black men tend to fit a stereotype of a human trafficker more than a middle-aged white person would. So a young black man with a daughter who looks white may be reported to police while a middle-aged white man with a daughter who looks white may not be in an otherwise identical situation. These types of situations tend to occur in hotels as parents may be carrying a child who passed out in the car, children may throw temper tantrums, and so on. These kinds of events are often not handled particularly well by police and there are some horror stories involving children separated from their parents and interrogated in ways that severely affected them.



The problem is simply that people whose families just happen to resemble untrained people's stereotypes of human trafficking will wind up having unpleasant encounters with police in situations involving them and their small children. It's like police stopping people who "don't look like they belong in this neighborhood", but worse.



Will specific employees be trained in recognizing actual signs of human trafficking or coerced sex work and accurately reply their suspicions to police? Or will every employee be told to report anything they think as suspicious, based on their personal life experiences and biases about what a family looks like, in a way that doesn't accurately convey the possibility of innocent explanations? The former might be unobjectionable, but the fear is that we'll actually get the latter.






share|improve this answer
















Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)




To add to the other answers, one problem with this is that is causes severe problems for people with uncommon family structures that frequently can resemble human trafficking to well-meaning, but untrained, people. This is particularly a problem for people who have adopted children of a different race or people whose children don't look very much like them.



Young black men tend to fit a stereotype of a human trafficker more than a middle-aged white person would. So a young black man with a daughter who looks white may be reported to police while a middle-aged white man with a daughter who looks white may not be in an otherwise identical situation. These types of situations tend to occur in hotels as parents may be carrying a child who passed out in the car, children may throw temper tantrums, and so on. These kinds of events are often not handled particularly well by police and there are some horror stories involving children separated from their parents and interrogated in ways that severely affected them.



The problem is simply that people whose families just happen to resemble untrained people's stereotypes of human trafficking will wind up having unpleasant encounters with police in situations involving them and their small children. It's like police stopping people who "don't look like they belong in this neighborhood", but worse.



Will specific employees be trained in recognizing actual signs of human trafficking or coerced sex work and accurately reply their suspicions to police? Or will every employee be told to report anything they think as suspicious, based on their personal life experiences and biases about what a family looks like, in a way that doesn't accurately convey the possibility of innocent explanations? The former might be unobjectionable, but the fear is that we'll actually get the latter.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 7 hours ago

























answered 9 hours ago









David SchwartzDavid Schwartz

1,620313




1,620313








  • 3





    Police can barely handle the idea of black people not being inherently dangerous, we definitely shouldn't trust whoever happens to be working at your local Marriott to make that call.

    – Azor Ahai
    6 hours ago














  • 3





    Police can barely handle the idea of black people not being inherently dangerous, we definitely shouldn't trust whoever happens to be working at your local Marriott to make that call.

    – Azor Ahai
    6 hours ago








3




3





Police can barely handle the idea of black people not being inherently dangerous, we definitely shouldn't trust whoever happens to be working at your local Marriott to make that call.

– Azor Ahai
6 hours ago





Police can barely handle the idea of black people not being inherently dangerous, we definitely shouldn't trust whoever happens to be working at your local Marriott to make that call.

– Azor Ahai
6 hours ago











8














One issue with the second proposal as you've phrased it is that hotel workers run the gamut from cleaners to managers; is every hotel worker supposed to get training on recognizing human trafficking at a glance? How effective is that training, in reality?



I imagine many hotels have high turnover rates, so I would expect the industry to object on the cost of training all employees to spot human trafficking.



Third, I would also expect the industry to be reticent to start accusing their patrons of human trafficking - especially those with wealthy clientele - even if they don't state it publicly. Imagine the media storm if a Hilton accused a parent of trafficking based on the skin color and appearance of their adopted child.






share|improve this answer
























  • On top of that, the employees could be illegal immigrants and depending on the location helping stop human trafficking could lead to their own deportation. That would incentivize them to look the other way even if that is not the right thing to do.

    – Reed
    9 hours ago






  • 4





    Anecdotal evidence, but from talking to a police officer, the ability of hotel workers to recognize sex trafficking ranges from "bad joke" to "highly counterproductive". Every single case of "child prostitution" he'd been sent to investigate turned out to be a father traveling with his daughter (most often, black father with light-skinned daughter), while adult prostitution was either father/teenage daughter, or college-age couple (again, with an over-representation of mixed-race pairs).

    – Mark
    9 hours ago











  • @Mark Yes, that was my impression from the class I took on human trafficking.

    – Azor Ahai
    9 hours ago
















8














One issue with the second proposal as you've phrased it is that hotel workers run the gamut from cleaners to managers; is every hotel worker supposed to get training on recognizing human trafficking at a glance? How effective is that training, in reality?



I imagine many hotels have high turnover rates, so I would expect the industry to object on the cost of training all employees to spot human trafficking.



Third, I would also expect the industry to be reticent to start accusing their patrons of human trafficking - especially those with wealthy clientele - even if they don't state it publicly. Imagine the media storm if a Hilton accused a parent of trafficking based on the skin color and appearance of their adopted child.






share|improve this answer
























  • On top of that, the employees could be illegal immigrants and depending on the location helping stop human trafficking could lead to their own deportation. That would incentivize them to look the other way even if that is not the right thing to do.

    – Reed
    9 hours ago






  • 4





    Anecdotal evidence, but from talking to a police officer, the ability of hotel workers to recognize sex trafficking ranges from "bad joke" to "highly counterproductive". Every single case of "child prostitution" he'd been sent to investigate turned out to be a father traveling with his daughter (most often, black father with light-skinned daughter), while adult prostitution was either father/teenage daughter, or college-age couple (again, with an over-representation of mixed-race pairs).

    – Mark
    9 hours ago











  • @Mark Yes, that was my impression from the class I took on human trafficking.

    – Azor Ahai
    9 hours ago














8












8








8







One issue with the second proposal as you've phrased it is that hotel workers run the gamut from cleaners to managers; is every hotel worker supposed to get training on recognizing human trafficking at a glance? How effective is that training, in reality?



I imagine many hotels have high turnover rates, so I would expect the industry to object on the cost of training all employees to spot human trafficking.



Third, I would also expect the industry to be reticent to start accusing their patrons of human trafficking - especially those with wealthy clientele - even if they don't state it publicly. Imagine the media storm if a Hilton accused a parent of trafficking based on the skin color and appearance of their adopted child.






share|improve this answer













One issue with the second proposal as you've phrased it is that hotel workers run the gamut from cleaners to managers; is every hotel worker supposed to get training on recognizing human trafficking at a glance? How effective is that training, in reality?



I imagine many hotels have high turnover rates, so I would expect the industry to object on the cost of training all employees to spot human trafficking.



Third, I would also expect the industry to be reticent to start accusing their patrons of human trafficking - especially those with wealthy clientele - even if they don't state it publicly. Imagine the media storm if a Hilton accused a parent of trafficking based on the skin color and appearance of their adopted child.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 11 hours ago









Azor AhaiAzor Ahai

1,300724




1,300724













  • On top of that, the employees could be illegal immigrants and depending on the location helping stop human trafficking could lead to their own deportation. That would incentivize them to look the other way even if that is not the right thing to do.

    – Reed
    9 hours ago






  • 4





    Anecdotal evidence, but from talking to a police officer, the ability of hotel workers to recognize sex trafficking ranges from "bad joke" to "highly counterproductive". Every single case of "child prostitution" he'd been sent to investigate turned out to be a father traveling with his daughter (most often, black father with light-skinned daughter), while adult prostitution was either father/teenage daughter, or college-age couple (again, with an over-representation of mixed-race pairs).

    – Mark
    9 hours ago











  • @Mark Yes, that was my impression from the class I took on human trafficking.

    – Azor Ahai
    9 hours ago



















  • On top of that, the employees could be illegal immigrants and depending on the location helping stop human trafficking could lead to their own deportation. That would incentivize them to look the other way even if that is not the right thing to do.

    – Reed
    9 hours ago






  • 4





    Anecdotal evidence, but from talking to a police officer, the ability of hotel workers to recognize sex trafficking ranges from "bad joke" to "highly counterproductive". Every single case of "child prostitution" he'd been sent to investigate turned out to be a father traveling with his daughter (most often, black father with light-skinned daughter), while adult prostitution was either father/teenage daughter, or college-age couple (again, with an over-representation of mixed-race pairs).

    – Mark
    9 hours ago











  • @Mark Yes, that was my impression from the class I took on human trafficking.

    – Azor Ahai
    9 hours ago

















On top of that, the employees could be illegal immigrants and depending on the location helping stop human trafficking could lead to their own deportation. That would incentivize them to look the other way even if that is not the right thing to do.

– Reed
9 hours ago





On top of that, the employees could be illegal immigrants and depending on the location helping stop human trafficking could lead to their own deportation. That would incentivize them to look the other way even if that is not the right thing to do.

– Reed
9 hours ago




4




4





Anecdotal evidence, but from talking to a police officer, the ability of hotel workers to recognize sex trafficking ranges from "bad joke" to "highly counterproductive". Every single case of "child prostitution" he'd been sent to investigate turned out to be a father traveling with his daughter (most often, black father with light-skinned daughter), while adult prostitution was either father/teenage daughter, or college-age couple (again, with an over-representation of mixed-race pairs).

– Mark
9 hours ago





Anecdotal evidence, but from talking to a police officer, the ability of hotel workers to recognize sex trafficking ranges from "bad joke" to "highly counterproductive". Every single case of "child prostitution" he'd been sent to investigate turned out to be a father traveling with his daughter (most often, black father with light-skinned daughter), while adult prostitution was either father/teenage daughter, or college-age couple (again, with an over-representation of mixed-race pairs).

– Mark
9 hours ago













@Mark Yes, that was my impression from the class I took on human trafficking.

– Azor Ahai
9 hours ago





@Mark Yes, that was my impression from the class I took on human trafficking.

– Azor Ahai
9 hours ago











5














The measures you're describing don't target trafficking, but sex work. They mean that sex workers will move away from high-visibility areas where they're less likely to come to harm but are more likely to be noticed by the authorities, and into more dangerous situations.



For example, if they can't work out of hotels without getting arrested for being a victim of trafficking (and yes, despite being the ostensible victim, they're often arrested), then they'll bring their clients back to their houses instead, with obvious risks if a client feels entitled to more than is being offered.



Sex workers are more likely to turn to any source of protection, which will lead to them being more likely to be trafficked.



All of this is also ignoring the fact that most trafficking victims in the US are not sex workers but domestic staff. It's attacking the wrong problem and then using the worst possible approach to do so.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




Ross Thompson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. - "worst possible approach" +1 but not if their goal is anti-sex work, then it's a great one....

    – Mazura
    2 hours ago
















5














The measures you're describing don't target trafficking, but sex work. They mean that sex workers will move away from high-visibility areas where they're less likely to come to harm but are more likely to be noticed by the authorities, and into more dangerous situations.



For example, if they can't work out of hotels without getting arrested for being a victim of trafficking (and yes, despite being the ostensible victim, they're often arrested), then they'll bring their clients back to their houses instead, with obvious risks if a client feels entitled to more than is being offered.



Sex workers are more likely to turn to any source of protection, which will lead to them being more likely to be trafficked.



All of this is also ignoring the fact that most trafficking victims in the US are not sex workers but domestic staff. It's attacking the wrong problem and then using the worst possible approach to do so.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




Ross Thompson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





















  • If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. - "worst possible approach" +1 but not if their goal is anti-sex work, then it's a great one....

    – Mazura
    2 hours ago














5












5








5







The measures you're describing don't target trafficking, but sex work. They mean that sex workers will move away from high-visibility areas where they're less likely to come to harm but are more likely to be noticed by the authorities, and into more dangerous situations.



For example, if they can't work out of hotels without getting arrested for being a victim of trafficking (and yes, despite being the ostensible victim, they're often arrested), then they'll bring their clients back to their houses instead, with obvious risks if a client feels entitled to more than is being offered.



Sex workers are more likely to turn to any source of protection, which will lead to them being more likely to be trafficked.



All of this is also ignoring the fact that most trafficking victims in the US are not sex workers but domestic staff. It's attacking the wrong problem and then using the worst possible approach to do so.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




Ross Thompson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










The measures you're describing don't target trafficking, but sex work. They mean that sex workers will move away from high-visibility areas where they're less likely to come to harm but are more likely to be noticed by the authorities, and into more dangerous situations.



For example, if they can't work out of hotels without getting arrested for being a victim of trafficking (and yes, despite being the ostensible victim, they're often arrested), then they'll bring their clients back to their houses instead, with obvious risks if a client feels entitled to more than is being offered.



Sex workers are more likely to turn to any source of protection, which will lead to them being more likely to be trafficked.



All of this is also ignoring the fact that most trafficking victims in the US are not sex workers but domestic staff. It's attacking the wrong problem and then using the worst possible approach to do so.







share|improve this answer








New contributor




Ross Thompson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer






New contributor




Ross Thompson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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answered 9 hours ago









Ross ThompsonRoss Thompson

511




511




New contributor




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New contributor





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  • If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. - "worst possible approach" +1 but not if their goal is anti-sex work, then it's a great one....

    – Mazura
    2 hours ago



















  • If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. - "worst possible approach" +1 but not if their goal is anti-sex work, then it's a great one....

    – Mazura
    2 hours ago

















If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. - "worst possible approach" +1 but not if their goal is anti-sex work, then it's a great one....

– Mazura
2 hours ago





If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. - "worst possible approach" +1 but not if their goal is anti-sex work, then it's a great one....

– Mazura
2 hours ago











0















Some say that [closing down illicit massage parlors] will force victims out onto the streets and into more
dangerous situations. I don't understand this objection as I had
imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue.




The thing to keep in mind is that people respond to incentives. If the government shuts down too many massage parlors, pimps will move their operations before their parlors are shut down. At the very least, new operations will be less likely to use massage parlors.



The magnitude of this effect depends on the cost of moving and the level of enforcement, but at least in theory, the number of prostitutes who move to the street may be much higher than the number who are arrested and/or rescued. (The fact that not all prostitutes are coerced has already been brought up.)






share|improve this answer








New contributor




ZTaylor is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • Welcome to politics, please attribute the quote at the start of your answer.

    – JJJ
    5 hours ago











  • @JJJ The quote is taken directly from the question.

    – F1Krazy
    21 mins ago
















0















Some say that [closing down illicit massage parlors] will force victims out onto the streets and into more
dangerous situations. I don't understand this objection as I had
imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue.




The thing to keep in mind is that people respond to incentives. If the government shuts down too many massage parlors, pimps will move their operations before their parlors are shut down. At the very least, new operations will be less likely to use massage parlors.



The magnitude of this effect depends on the cost of moving and the level of enforcement, but at least in theory, the number of prostitutes who move to the street may be much higher than the number who are arrested and/or rescued. (The fact that not all prostitutes are coerced has already been brought up.)






share|improve this answer








New contributor




ZTaylor is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • Welcome to politics, please attribute the quote at the start of your answer.

    – JJJ
    5 hours ago











  • @JJJ The quote is taken directly from the question.

    – F1Krazy
    21 mins ago














0












0








0








Some say that [closing down illicit massage parlors] will force victims out onto the streets and into more
dangerous situations. I don't understand this objection as I had
imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue.




The thing to keep in mind is that people respond to incentives. If the government shuts down too many massage parlors, pimps will move their operations before their parlors are shut down. At the very least, new operations will be less likely to use massage parlors.



The magnitude of this effect depends on the cost of moving and the level of enforcement, but at least in theory, the number of prostitutes who move to the street may be much higher than the number who are arrested and/or rescued. (The fact that not all prostitutes are coerced has already been brought up.)






share|improve this answer








New contributor




ZTaylor is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











Some say that [closing down illicit massage parlors] will force victims out onto the streets and into more
dangerous situations. I don't understand this objection as I had
imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue.




The thing to keep in mind is that people respond to incentives. If the government shuts down too many massage parlors, pimps will move their operations before their parlors are shut down. At the very least, new operations will be less likely to use massage parlors.



The magnitude of this effect depends on the cost of moving and the level of enforcement, but at least in theory, the number of prostitutes who move to the street may be much higher than the number who are arrested and/or rescued. (The fact that not all prostitutes are coerced has already been brought up.)







share|improve this answer








New contributor




ZTaylor is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer






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answered 8 hours ago









ZTaylorZTaylor

1




1




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  • Welcome to politics, please attribute the quote at the start of your answer.

    – JJJ
    5 hours ago











  • @JJJ The quote is taken directly from the question.

    – F1Krazy
    21 mins ago



















  • Welcome to politics, please attribute the quote at the start of your answer.

    – JJJ
    5 hours ago











  • @JJJ The quote is taken directly from the question.

    – F1Krazy
    21 mins ago

















Welcome to politics, please attribute the quote at the start of your answer.

– JJJ
5 hours ago





Welcome to politics, please attribute the quote at the start of your answer.

– JJJ
5 hours ago













@JJJ The quote is taken directly from the question.

– F1Krazy
21 mins ago





@JJJ The quote is taken directly from the question.

– F1Krazy
21 mins ago


















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