How to avoid being sexist when trying to employ someone to function in a very sexist environment?how do I...
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How to avoid being sexist when trying to employ someone to function in a very sexist environment?
how do I make it clear when applying for a job that I'm willing and able to relocate at very short notice?How to avoid being cheated by some fake recruiters as a newbie?
Let's assume I need to find an employee to act as a middleman/ link between two teams: IT and my team.
Whereas my team (and most of the company) is quite a nice place to work in in terms of diversity, cooperation and lack of hostility, the IT at my company is the nightmare:
- There are no women there. I don't mean that women don't constitute 50% of the employees. I mean: there's literally no woman there. Not one.
- The atmosphere is extremely "testosterony". Jokes are told that should never be told in the workplace
- Women aren't treated seriously during discussions, their input is neglected.
I don't have any power over the other team and talks with their manager brought nothing so far. Their manager is part of the problem. I know them from projects we cooperated on. I've worked in enough places to say that the IT dept at my current company is worse in terms of sexism than... Probably all of them.
Now, I need to employ someone who will act as a link between the two teams.
I'm now about to interview a female candidate who seems smart and whose experience is ok. But I caught myself thinking: "If I employ a woman, it will be hell for her to work with the other team and the probability she will resign soon is high".
I know this thought is totally sexist, but I'm a woman myself and I know how super difficult it is to work in a team where everybody is against you just because you don't have the "right" reproductive organs and especially with this team.
So I'm wondering what the best way to deal with this situation would be. I know I could mention to the candidates that it's not an easy position and ask the how they tackled difficulties in the past, but I'm skeptical when it comes to their realisation of the potential difficulties of this position. It's just worse than what is accepted in most companies.
Please note that this person would need to work with both teams about 50-50% of the time.
recruitment sexism
|
show 2 more comments
Let's assume I need to find an employee to act as a middleman/ link between two teams: IT and my team.
Whereas my team (and most of the company) is quite a nice place to work in in terms of diversity, cooperation and lack of hostility, the IT at my company is the nightmare:
- There are no women there. I don't mean that women don't constitute 50% of the employees. I mean: there's literally no woman there. Not one.
- The atmosphere is extremely "testosterony". Jokes are told that should never be told in the workplace
- Women aren't treated seriously during discussions, their input is neglected.
I don't have any power over the other team and talks with their manager brought nothing so far. Their manager is part of the problem. I know them from projects we cooperated on. I've worked in enough places to say that the IT dept at my current company is worse in terms of sexism than... Probably all of them.
Now, I need to employ someone who will act as a link between the two teams.
I'm now about to interview a female candidate who seems smart and whose experience is ok. But I caught myself thinking: "If I employ a woman, it will be hell for her to work with the other team and the probability she will resign soon is high".
I know this thought is totally sexist, but I'm a woman myself and I know how super difficult it is to work in a team where everybody is against you just because you don't have the "right" reproductive organs and especially with this team.
So I'm wondering what the best way to deal with this situation would be. I know I could mention to the candidates that it's not an easy position and ask the how they tackled difficulties in the past, but I'm skeptical when it comes to their realisation of the potential difficulties of this position. It's just worse than what is accepted in most companies.
Please note that this person would need to work with both teams about 50-50% of the time.
recruitment sexism
2
@EdHeal, it's not like they are living in a cave, far from civilization. They do projects with women (developers, PMs, etc.) from other teams. This hasn't helped so far, so I'm not sure why a woman among them could help.
– BigMadAndy
12 hours ago
1
Are you in the United States? There are laws in the US that protect women from discriminated against.
– jcmack
12 hours ago
13
@RichardU: it's not about using foul language or farting in meetings. It's about not taking women in consideration, rolling eyes when they speak, interrupting them, excluding them. If it was about them telling "sh*t" too frequently, I wouldn't care.
– BigMadAndy
12 hours ago
1
Could you please use a country tag and tell us about the average age and the junior to senior ratio in that team? It might help to know if it's a rural area or in a city above 500k population.also, were the women they interacted with senior or junior (age as well as professionally)and in the same or different profession to the IT team members?
– DigitalBlade969
11 hours ago
2
Have you (or others) reported this behavior to your HR dept? What, if anything, have they done?
– JeffC
9 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Let's assume I need to find an employee to act as a middleman/ link between two teams: IT and my team.
Whereas my team (and most of the company) is quite a nice place to work in in terms of diversity, cooperation and lack of hostility, the IT at my company is the nightmare:
- There are no women there. I don't mean that women don't constitute 50% of the employees. I mean: there's literally no woman there. Not one.
- The atmosphere is extremely "testosterony". Jokes are told that should never be told in the workplace
- Women aren't treated seriously during discussions, their input is neglected.
I don't have any power over the other team and talks with their manager brought nothing so far. Their manager is part of the problem. I know them from projects we cooperated on. I've worked in enough places to say that the IT dept at my current company is worse in terms of sexism than... Probably all of them.
Now, I need to employ someone who will act as a link between the two teams.
I'm now about to interview a female candidate who seems smart and whose experience is ok. But I caught myself thinking: "If I employ a woman, it will be hell for her to work with the other team and the probability she will resign soon is high".
I know this thought is totally sexist, but I'm a woman myself and I know how super difficult it is to work in a team where everybody is against you just because you don't have the "right" reproductive organs and especially with this team.
So I'm wondering what the best way to deal with this situation would be. I know I could mention to the candidates that it's not an easy position and ask the how they tackled difficulties in the past, but I'm skeptical when it comes to their realisation of the potential difficulties of this position. It's just worse than what is accepted in most companies.
Please note that this person would need to work with both teams about 50-50% of the time.
recruitment sexism
Let's assume I need to find an employee to act as a middleman/ link between two teams: IT and my team.
Whereas my team (and most of the company) is quite a nice place to work in in terms of diversity, cooperation and lack of hostility, the IT at my company is the nightmare:
- There are no women there. I don't mean that women don't constitute 50% of the employees. I mean: there's literally no woman there. Not one.
- The atmosphere is extremely "testosterony". Jokes are told that should never be told in the workplace
- Women aren't treated seriously during discussions, their input is neglected.
I don't have any power over the other team and talks with their manager brought nothing so far. Their manager is part of the problem. I know them from projects we cooperated on. I've worked in enough places to say that the IT dept at my current company is worse in terms of sexism than... Probably all of them.
Now, I need to employ someone who will act as a link between the two teams.
I'm now about to interview a female candidate who seems smart and whose experience is ok. But I caught myself thinking: "If I employ a woman, it will be hell for her to work with the other team and the probability she will resign soon is high".
I know this thought is totally sexist, but I'm a woman myself and I know how super difficult it is to work in a team where everybody is against you just because you don't have the "right" reproductive organs and especially with this team.
So I'm wondering what the best way to deal with this situation would be. I know I could mention to the candidates that it's not an easy position and ask the how they tackled difficulties in the past, but I'm skeptical when it comes to their realisation of the potential difficulties of this position. It's just worse than what is accepted in most companies.
Please note that this person would need to work with both teams about 50-50% of the time.
recruitment sexism
recruitment sexism
edited 12 hours ago
BigMadAndy
asked 12 hours ago
BigMadAndyBigMadAndy
13.7k112565
13.7k112565
2
@EdHeal, it's not like they are living in a cave, far from civilization. They do projects with women (developers, PMs, etc.) from other teams. This hasn't helped so far, so I'm not sure why a woman among them could help.
– BigMadAndy
12 hours ago
1
Are you in the United States? There are laws in the US that protect women from discriminated against.
– jcmack
12 hours ago
13
@RichardU: it's not about using foul language or farting in meetings. It's about not taking women in consideration, rolling eyes when they speak, interrupting them, excluding them. If it was about them telling "sh*t" too frequently, I wouldn't care.
– BigMadAndy
12 hours ago
1
Could you please use a country tag and tell us about the average age and the junior to senior ratio in that team? It might help to know if it's a rural area or in a city above 500k population.also, were the women they interacted with senior or junior (age as well as professionally)and in the same or different profession to the IT team members?
– DigitalBlade969
11 hours ago
2
Have you (or others) reported this behavior to your HR dept? What, if anything, have they done?
– JeffC
9 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
2
@EdHeal, it's not like they are living in a cave, far from civilization. They do projects with women (developers, PMs, etc.) from other teams. This hasn't helped so far, so I'm not sure why a woman among them could help.
– BigMadAndy
12 hours ago
1
Are you in the United States? There are laws in the US that protect women from discriminated against.
– jcmack
12 hours ago
13
@RichardU: it's not about using foul language or farting in meetings. It's about not taking women in consideration, rolling eyes when they speak, interrupting them, excluding them. If it was about them telling "sh*t" too frequently, I wouldn't care.
– BigMadAndy
12 hours ago
1
Could you please use a country tag and tell us about the average age and the junior to senior ratio in that team? It might help to know if it's a rural area or in a city above 500k population.also, were the women they interacted with senior or junior (age as well as professionally)and in the same or different profession to the IT team members?
– DigitalBlade969
11 hours ago
2
Have you (or others) reported this behavior to your HR dept? What, if anything, have they done?
– JeffC
9 hours ago
2
2
@EdHeal, it's not like they are living in a cave, far from civilization. They do projects with women (developers, PMs, etc.) from other teams. This hasn't helped so far, so I'm not sure why a woman among them could help.
– BigMadAndy
12 hours ago
@EdHeal, it's not like they are living in a cave, far from civilization. They do projects with women (developers, PMs, etc.) from other teams. This hasn't helped so far, so I'm not sure why a woman among them could help.
– BigMadAndy
12 hours ago
1
1
Are you in the United States? There are laws in the US that protect women from discriminated against.
– jcmack
12 hours ago
Are you in the United States? There are laws in the US that protect women from discriminated against.
– jcmack
12 hours ago
13
13
@RichardU: it's not about using foul language or farting in meetings. It's about not taking women in consideration, rolling eyes when they speak, interrupting them, excluding them. If it was about them telling "sh*t" too frequently, I wouldn't care.
– BigMadAndy
12 hours ago
@RichardU: it's not about using foul language or farting in meetings. It's about not taking women in consideration, rolling eyes when they speak, interrupting them, excluding them. If it was about them telling "sh*t" too frequently, I wouldn't care.
– BigMadAndy
12 hours ago
1
1
Could you please use a country tag and tell us about the average age and the junior to senior ratio in that team? It might help to know if it's a rural area or in a city above 500k population.also, were the women they interacted with senior or junior (age as well as professionally)and in the same or different profession to the IT team members?
– DigitalBlade969
11 hours ago
Could you please use a country tag and tell us about the average age and the junior to senior ratio in that team? It might help to know if it's a rural area or in a city above 500k population.also, were the women they interacted with senior or junior (age as well as professionally)and in the same or different profession to the IT team members?
– DigitalBlade969
11 hours ago
2
2
Have you (or others) reported this behavior to your HR dept? What, if anything, have they done?
– JeffC
9 hours ago
Have you (or others) reported this behavior to your HR dept? What, if anything, have they done?
– JeffC
9 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
Due to legal implications I would not let this factor into a hiring decision at all. I would, however, make sure that she knows that this should be a consideration in her accepting or declining. By not being open you would potentially set her up for a job she may be miserable at. Phrasing this is also kind of tricky so I'd suggest meeting both teams that she'd be working with as part of the hiring process.
You'll be spending about 50% of your time working in the IT team and 50% with my team. I'd like to book a couple hours of on-site time to meet with both to get a feeling for how well you'll click with them both. The teams have very different internal cultures and it's important to me that you are comfortable working with both.
This keeps you from saying anything that opens you up to legal issues while allowing her a chance for a peek behind the curtain.
3
Meeting the teams should be mandatory when interviewing someone to liaison between them.
– l0b0
2 hours ago
6
It's important to point out that this should be offered to all candidates, male or female, otherwise it could be (quite rightly) perceived as discrimination.
– Pharap
1 hour ago
add a comment |
If you're in the US, you are in very murky waters if you start treating applicants differently because of their perceived sex. According to the EEOC, that includes formal inquiries as well as informal. From the EEOC's list of prohibited practices:
Although state and federal equal opportunity laws do not clearly forbid employers from making pre-employment inquiries that relate to, or disproportionately screen out members based on race, color, sex, national origin, religion, or age, such inquiries may be used as evidence of an employer's intent to discriminate unless the questions asked can be justified by some business purpose.
I am not a lawyer, but I have some experience with laws around discrimination in housing, which are similar. In housing, having different pointed conversations with people according to a protected category is generally a giant waving red flag that you are running afoul of US law.
As someone who has been a woman in tech, though, it's a frustrating, no-win situation to be hiring people into a hostile workplace. So, what to do?
- Continue to ask your questions about how the interviewee dealt with challenging work situations in the past.
- If your HR department is halfway decent, they'll want to know about this behavior. If your IT department is so bad that you're considering not hiring women, they are likely creating a hostile work environment, which opens your company to a lot of liability. The HR department also may have ideas for how to conduct interviews without discrimination.
- On that note, ask experts in maintaining diversity in bad situations. AAUW, Hire More Women in Tech, and many other groups have come up with excellent suggestions for just this scenario.
But, again, the assumptions you're making are unfortunately explicitly prohibited by the EEOC. You cannot base employment decisions on assumptions that are based on someone's sex, race, national origin, age, and other protected categories. Even if your heart is in the right place.
New contributor
7
I think the way to apply this answer is to consider that it can very easily be uncomfortable for men to work in places where jokes that shouldn't be told are told, even if those jokes aren't about men. Have the same pointed conversation with every candidate about the culture of the team that's being liased with.
– Erin Anne
6 hours ago
3
"You cannot base employment decisions on assumptions that are based on someone's sex, race, national origin, age, and other protected categories." - You can. It's even in your quote at the beginning. But you can discriminate only if it is "justified by some business purpose". There are several cases where you can legitimately base your hiring on "protected categories". (As the most obvious example, if you hire an actor to play Napoleon, you can legally restrict the applicants to middle-aged white men). It just so happens that IT jobs don't fulfill this criteria.
– Val
1 hour ago
add a comment |
First off, don't assume that the woman you intend to hire is too weak to handle herself.
We have two women working here, and I wouldn't want to take on either one in a verbal conflict. One of them could probably take me in a physical conflict too, and curses far more than I do.
Second, don't assume the team will react poorly. There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Third, avoid sexism on your own part..... This line disturbs me a bit.
•The atmosphere is extremely "testosterony". Jokes are told that should never be told in the workplace
That's a rather sexist point of view that implies that there's something inherently wrong with male hormones. Honestly, if you were at my workplace with that attitude, you'd not be well received, principally by the woman I mentioned above. Also, if the behavior is unacceptable, why is it being accepted? Honestly, if it's that bad, it should be addressed before hiring ANYONE, male or female, to that team.
Men do not have a monopoly on bad behavior.
Testosterone is not inherently bad, estrogen is not inherently good.
You need to step back, stop making this men vs women, and make it about building a healthy team.
If you anticipate problems, you'll get them. IF you go in with the attitude that you're going to be building a healthy team, you will build a healthy team.
If any issues arise, address them as they arise, and don't accept nonsense.
Back to my first point.
Isn't your assumption that this woman can't handle herself a bit sexist on your part as well?
Step back, reevaluate the situation, make changes that need to be made, correct behavior NOW and THEN introduce the new teammate. But do not allow your own biases to creep in. Hire the person, and deal with any issues that arise swiftly, and harshly, with trips to HR if necessary.
4
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Mister Positive♦
8 hours ago
@JeffC suggested reading What “comments” are not . . .. But yes, you are right that the Question itself is piling many comments that should go... If you see such things again feel free to flag the comments as "no longer needed" or whatever it applies (as I just did with some of the comments under the Q).
– DarkCygnus
7 hours ago
2
OP has updated question to explain that she has no control over IT team and attempts to address their behaviour via management etc. have failed. This means that fixing the situation before hiring does not seem possible, and "anticipating problems" (and trying to mitigate them) is actually the right thing to do.
– Ergwun
7 hours ago
"too weak to handle herself" in toxic atmosphere, vs. "willing to start working somewhere where you have to do that as integral part of your job"... Also, women produce testosterone as well, so I actually think referring to that hormone is a gender-neutral way to describe that certain kind of atmosphere, because one of the roles of the hormone, both in men and in women, is related to sex and libido.
– hyde
3 mins ago
add a comment |
You want to make the situation clear when you offer the position (if not in the interview before). There are some women who will decide the job isn't for them. But there are others who would be willing to take the job and that situation. You want to know before hiring this candidate which one she thinks she is, and let her decide if this is a good job for her.
If she decides this is a job she wants to take on, then you offer support and ways for her to mitigate the problem, perhaps by going above their manager when necessary. (As a women in tech, I still believe that most of the most sub-human of co-workers can learn to respect competence.) But for the actual figuring out how to make that happen - that will have to be up to the person you hire. They just need to know going in that that is part of the job, perhaps the biggest part.
If the best person for this job is a woman, you absolutely want to hire her. Because as long as the only people they need to respect and work with are men, and their manager supports them in that, they will continue their present behavior. If they must work with a woman, there is some hope that the right hire can start changing that dynamic.
3
I wrote this in my answer, but if you're in the US, if you make the situation clear to women, you must also make it clear to men.
– RCA
11 hours ago
1
@RCA Does that still apply if you make the situation clear after you present an offer? I would only ever bring it up with someone after we had decided we want to hire them.
– David K
11 hours ago
3
@DavidK Interesting question - I don't know, but my guess is that if your practice systematically causes some protected class of people to not accept a job offer, that's illegal.
– RCA
11 hours ago
@RCA Wait—but in this situation, giving the same explanation to all applicants of all genders would also likely result in a protected class of people being much less likely to accept the job offer. The explanation is the same, but it has vastly different consequences depending on the applicant's gender.
– Wowfunhappy
8 hours ago
Wowfunhappy - I dunno. I do think that the answer @RCA made is probably the better one.
– thursdaysgeek
7 hours ago
add a comment |
If you are anticipating your potential new hires having problems, Take a few measures to give them a helping hand.
Let your new employee know the procedures for dealing with anything untoward (not just the inevitable problems) and be prepared to back them up if need be. Let them know your complaints procedure. This should really be part of your onboarding procedure for anyone.
Also: why are you only dealing with this now? And why are you only trying to deal with your new employee adapting to the problem rather than the problem itself?
You do mention that it's not your team and that you have no control over their behaviour. You also don't mention how far their behaviour goes so I'm going to assume they're incel-y but no (known) sexual harrassment.
Why have you not gone to HR about these creating a hostile work environment? This team sounds like the kind of lawsuit/#metoo ticking time bomb that HR is made to deal with. You have women in your company having problems with these guys right now. Your company could potentially be one lawsuit or hashtag away from being buried.
In summary:
You need to go to HR about this team. Now.
add a comment |
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5 Answers
5
active
oldest
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5 Answers
5
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oldest
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Due to legal implications I would not let this factor into a hiring decision at all. I would, however, make sure that she knows that this should be a consideration in her accepting or declining. By not being open you would potentially set her up for a job she may be miserable at. Phrasing this is also kind of tricky so I'd suggest meeting both teams that she'd be working with as part of the hiring process.
You'll be spending about 50% of your time working in the IT team and 50% with my team. I'd like to book a couple hours of on-site time to meet with both to get a feeling for how well you'll click with them both. The teams have very different internal cultures and it's important to me that you are comfortable working with both.
This keeps you from saying anything that opens you up to legal issues while allowing her a chance for a peek behind the curtain.
3
Meeting the teams should be mandatory when interviewing someone to liaison between them.
– l0b0
2 hours ago
6
It's important to point out that this should be offered to all candidates, male or female, otherwise it could be (quite rightly) perceived as discrimination.
– Pharap
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Due to legal implications I would not let this factor into a hiring decision at all. I would, however, make sure that she knows that this should be a consideration in her accepting or declining. By not being open you would potentially set her up for a job she may be miserable at. Phrasing this is also kind of tricky so I'd suggest meeting both teams that she'd be working with as part of the hiring process.
You'll be spending about 50% of your time working in the IT team and 50% with my team. I'd like to book a couple hours of on-site time to meet with both to get a feeling for how well you'll click with them both. The teams have very different internal cultures and it's important to me that you are comfortable working with both.
This keeps you from saying anything that opens you up to legal issues while allowing her a chance for a peek behind the curtain.
3
Meeting the teams should be mandatory when interviewing someone to liaison between them.
– l0b0
2 hours ago
6
It's important to point out that this should be offered to all candidates, male or female, otherwise it could be (quite rightly) perceived as discrimination.
– Pharap
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Due to legal implications I would not let this factor into a hiring decision at all. I would, however, make sure that she knows that this should be a consideration in her accepting or declining. By not being open you would potentially set her up for a job she may be miserable at. Phrasing this is also kind of tricky so I'd suggest meeting both teams that she'd be working with as part of the hiring process.
You'll be spending about 50% of your time working in the IT team and 50% with my team. I'd like to book a couple hours of on-site time to meet with both to get a feeling for how well you'll click with them both. The teams have very different internal cultures and it's important to me that you are comfortable working with both.
This keeps you from saying anything that opens you up to legal issues while allowing her a chance for a peek behind the curtain.
Due to legal implications I would not let this factor into a hiring decision at all. I would, however, make sure that she knows that this should be a consideration in her accepting or declining. By not being open you would potentially set her up for a job she may be miserable at. Phrasing this is also kind of tricky so I'd suggest meeting both teams that she'd be working with as part of the hiring process.
You'll be spending about 50% of your time working in the IT team and 50% with my team. I'd like to book a couple hours of on-site time to meet with both to get a feeling for how well you'll click with them both. The teams have very different internal cultures and it's important to me that you are comfortable working with both.
This keeps you from saying anything that opens you up to legal issues while allowing her a chance for a peek behind the curtain.
edited 8 hours ago
thatgirldm
770249
770249
answered 11 hours ago
MylesMyles
27.3k663112
27.3k663112
3
Meeting the teams should be mandatory when interviewing someone to liaison between them.
– l0b0
2 hours ago
6
It's important to point out that this should be offered to all candidates, male or female, otherwise it could be (quite rightly) perceived as discrimination.
– Pharap
1 hour ago
add a comment |
3
Meeting the teams should be mandatory when interviewing someone to liaison between them.
– l0b0
2 hours ago
6
It's important to point out that this should be offered to all candidates, male or female, otherwise it could be (quite rightly) perceived as discrimination.
– Pharap
1 hour ago
3
3
Meeting the teams should be mandatory when interviewing someone to liaison between them.
– l0b0
2 hours ago
Meeting the teams should be mandatory when interviewing someone to liaison between them.
– l0b0
2 hours ago
6
6
It's important to point out that this should be offered to all candidates, male or female, otherwise it could be (quite rightly) perceived as discrimination.
– Pharap
1 hour ago
It's important to point out that this should be offered to all candidates, male or female, otherwise it could be (quite rightly) perceived as discrimination.
– Pharap
1 hour ago
add a comment |
If you're in the US, you are in very murky waters if you start treating applicants differently because of their perceived sex. According to the EEOC, that includes formal inquiries as well as informal. From the EEOC's list of prohibited practices:
Although state and federal equal opportunity laws do not clearly forbid employers from making pre-employment inquiries that relate to, or disproportionately screen out members based on race, color, sex, national origin, religion, or age, such inquiries may be used as evidence of an employer's intent to discriminate unless the questions asked can be justified by some business purpose.
I am not a lawyer, but I have some experience with laws around discrimination in housing, which are similar. In housing, having different pointed conversations with people according to a protected category is generally a giant waving red flag that you are running afoul of US law.
As someone who has been a woman in tech, though, it's a frustrating, no-win situation to be hiring people into a hostile workplace. So, what to do?
- Continue to ask your questions about how the interviewee dealt with challenging work situations in the past.
- If your HR department is halfway decent, they'll want to know about this behavior. If your IT department is so bad that you're considering not hiring women, they are likely creating a hostile work environment, which opens your company to a lot of liability. The HR department also may have ideas for how to conduct interviews without discrimination.
- On that note, ask experts in maintaining diversity in bad situations. AAUW, Hire More Women in Tech, and many other groups have come up with excellent suggestions for just this scenario.
But, again, the assumptions you're making are unfortunately explicitly prohibited by the EEOC. You cannot base employment decisions on assumptions that are based on someone's sex, race, national origin, age, and other protected categories. Even if your heart is in the right place.
New contributor
7
I think the way to apply this answer is to consider that it can very easily be uncomfortable for men to work in places where jokes that shouldn't be told are told, even if those jokes aren't about men. Have the same pointed conversation with every candidate about the culture of the team that's being liased with.
– Erin Anne
6 hours ago
3
"You cannot base employment decisions on assumptions that are based on someone's sex, race, national origin, age, and other protected categories." - You can. It's even in your quote at the beginning. But you can discriminate only if it is "justified by some business purpose". There are several cases where you can legitimately base your hiring on "protected categories". (As the most obvious example, if you hire an actor to play Napoleon, you can legally restrict the applicants to middle-aged white men). It just so happens that IT jobs don't fulfill this criteria.
– Val
1 hour ago
add a comment |
If you're in the US, you are in very murky waters if you start treating applicants differently because of their perceived sex. According to the EEOC, that includes formal inquiries as well as informal. From the EEOC's list of prohibited practices:
Although state and federal equal opportunity laws do not clearly forbid employers from making pre-employment inquiries that relate to, or disproportionately screen out members based on race, color, sex, national origin, religion, or age, such inquiries may be used as evidence of an employer's intent to discriminate unless the questions asked can be justified by some business purpose.
I am not a lawyer, but I have some experience with laws around discrimination in housing, which are similar. In housing, having different pointed conversations with people according to a protected category is generally a giant waving red flag that you are running afoul of US law.
As someone who has been a woman in tech, though, it's a frustrating, no-win situation to be hiring people into a hostile workplace. So, what to do?
- Continue to ask your questions about how the interviewee dealt with challenging work situations in the past.
- If your HR department is halfway decent, they'll want to know about this behavior. If your IT department is so bad that you're considering not hiring women, they are likely creating a hostile work environment, which opens your company to a lot of liability. The HR department also may have ideas for how to conduct interviews without discrimination.
- On that note, ask experts in maintaining diversity in bad situations. AAUW, Hire More Women in Tech, and many other groups have come up with excellent suggestions for just this scenario.
But, again, the assumptions you're making are unfortunately explicitly prohibited by the EEOC. You cannot base employment decisions on assumptions that are based on someone's sex, race, national origin, age, and other protected categories. Even if your heart is in the right place.
New contributor
7
I think the way to apply this answer is to consider that it can very easily be uncomfortable for men to work in places where jokes that shouldn't be told are told, even if those jokes aren't about men. Have the same pointed conversation with every candidate about the culture of the team that's being liased with.
– Erin Anne
6 hours ago
3
"You cannot base employment decisions on assumptions that are based on someone's sex, race, national origin, age, and other protected categories." - You can. It's even in your quote at the beginning. But you can discriminate only if it is "justified by some business purpose". There are several cases where you can legitimately base your hiring on "protected categories". (As the most obvious example, if you hire an actor to play Napoleon, you can legally restrict the applicants to middle-aged white men). It just so happens that IT jobs don't fulfill this criteria.
– Val
1 hour ago
add a comment |
If you're in the US, you are in very murky waters if you start treating applicants differently because of their perceived sex. According to the EEOC, that includes formal inquiries as well as informal. From the EEOC's list of prohibited practices:
Although state and federal equal opportunity laws do not clearly forbid employers from making pre-employment inquiries that relate to, or disproportionately screen out members based on race, color, sex, national origin, religion, or age, such inquiries may be used as evidence of an employer's intent to discriminate unless the questions asked can be justified by some business purpose.
I am not a lawyer, but I have some experience with laws around discrimination in housing, which are similar. In housing, having different pointed conversations with people according to a protected category is generally a giant waving red flag that you are running afoul of US law.
As someone who has been a woman in tech, though, it's a frustrating, no-win situation to be hiring people into a hostile workplace. So, what to do?
- Continue to ask your questions about how the interviewee dealt with challenging work situations in the past.
- If your HR department is halfway decent, they'll want to know about this behavior. If your IT department is so bad that you're considering not hiring women, they are likely creating a hostile work environment, which opens your company to a lot of liability. The HR department also may have ideas for how to conduct interviews without discrimination.
- On that note, ask experts in maintaining diversity in bad situations. AAUW, Hire More Women in Tech, and many other groups have come up with excellent suggestions for just this scenario.
But, again, the assumptions you're making are unfortunately explicitly prohibited by the EEOC. You cannot base employment decisions on assumptions that are based on someone's sex, race, national origin, age, and other protected categories. Even if your heart is in the right place.
New contributor
If you're in the US, you are in very murky waters if you start treating applicants differently because of their perceived sex. According to the EEOC, that includes formal inquiries as well as informal. From the EEOC's list of prohibited practices:
Although state and federal equal opportunity laws do not clearly forbid employers from making pre-employment inquiries that relate to, or disproportionately screen out members based on race, color, sex, national origin, religion, or age, such inquiries may be used as evidence of an employer's intent to discriminate unless the questions asked can be justified by some business purpose.
I am not a lawyer, but I have some experience with laws around discrimination in housing, which are similar. In housing, having different pointed conversations with people according to a protected category is generally a giant waving red flag that you are running afoul of US law.
As someone who has been a woman in tech, though, it's a frustrating, no-win situation to be hiring people into a hostile workplace. So, what to do?
- Continue to ask your questions about how the interviewee dealt with challenging work situations in the past.
- If your HR department is halfway decent, they'll want to know about this behavior. If your IT department is so bad that you're considering not hiring women, they are likely creating a hostile work environment, which opens your company to a lot of liability. The HR department also may have ideas for how to conduct interviews without discrimination.
- On that note, ask experts in maintaining diversity in bad situations. AAUW, Hire More Women in Tech, and many other groups have come up with excellent suggestions for just this scenario.
But, again, the assumptions you're making are unfortunately explicitly prohibited by the EEOC. You cannot base employment decisions on assumptions that are based on someone's sex, race, national origin, age, and other protected categories. Even if your heart is in the right place.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 11 hours ago
RCARCA
2593
2593
New contributor
New contributor
7
I think the way to apply this answer is to consider that it can very easily be uncomfortable for men to work in places where jokes that shouldn't be told are told, even if those jokes aren't about men. Have the same pointed conversation with every candidate about the culture of the team that's being liased with.
– Erin Anne
6 hours ago
3
"You cannot base employment decisions on assumptions that are based on someone's sex, race, national origin, age, and other protected categories." - You can. It's even in your quote at the beginning. But you can discriminate only if it is "justified by some business purpose". There are several cases where you can legitimately base your hiring on "protected categories". (As the most obvious example, if you hire an actor to play Napoleon, you can legally restrict the applicants to middle-aged white men). It just so happens that IT jobs don't fulfill this criteria.
– Val
1 hour ago
add a comment |
7
I think the way to apply this answer is to consider that it can very easily be uncomfortable for men to work in places where jokes that shouldn't be told are told, even if those jokes aren't about men. Have the same pointed conversation with every candidate about the culture of the team that's being liased with.
– Erin Anne
6 hours ago
3
"You cannot base employment decisions on assumptions that are based on someone's sex, race, national origin, age, and other protected categories." - You can. It's even in your quote at the beginning. But you can discriminate only if it is "justified by some business purpose". There are several cases where you can legitimately base your hiring on "protected categories". (As the most obvious example, if you hire an actor to play Napoleon, you can legally restrict the applicants to middle-aged white men). It just so happens that IT jobs don't fulfill this criteria.
– Val
1 hour ago
7
7
I think the way to apply this answer is to consider that it can very easily be uncomfortable for men to work in places where jokes that shouldn't be told are told, even if those jokes aren't about men. Have the same pointed conversation with every candidate about the culture of the team that's being liased with.
– Erin Anne
6 hours ago
I think the way to apply this answer is to consider that it can very easily be uncomfortable for men to work in places where jokes that shouldn't be told are told, even if those jokes aren't about men. Have the same pointed conversation with every candidate about the culture of the team that's being liased with.
– Erin Anne
6 hours ago
3
3
"You cannot base employment decisions on assumptions that are based on someone's sex, race, national origin, age, and other protected categories." - You can. It's even in your quote at the beginning. But you can discriminate only if it is "justified by some business purpose". There are several cases where you can legitimately base your hiring on "protected categories". (As the most obvious example, if you hire an actor to play Napoleon, you can legally restrict the applicants to middle-aged white men). It just so happens that IT jobs don't fulfill this criteria.
– Val
1 hour ago
"You cannot base employment decisions on assumptions that are based on someone's sex, race, national origin, age, and other protected categories." - You can. It's even in your quote at the beginning. But you can discriminate only if it is "justified by some business purpose". There are several cases where you can legitimately base your hiring on "protected categories". (As the most obvious example, if you hire an actor to play Napoleon, you can legally restrict the applicants to middle-aged white men). It just so happens that IT jobs don't fulfill this criteria.
– Val
1 hour ago
add a comment |
First off, don't assume that the woman you intend to hire is too weak to handle herself.
We have two women working here, and I wouldn't want to take on either one in a verbal conflict. One of them could probably take me in a physical conflict too, and curses far more than I do.
Second, don't assume the team will react poorly. There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Third, avoid sexism on your own part..... This line disturbs me a bit.
•The atmosphere is extremely "testosterony". Jokes are told that should never be told in the workplace
That's a rather sexist point of view that implies that there's something inherently wrong with male hormones. Honestly, if you were at my workplace with that attitude, you'd not be well received, principally by the woman I mentioned above. Also, if the behavior is unacceptable, why is it being accepted? Honestly, if it's that bad, it should be addressed before hiring ANYONE, male or female, to that team.
Men do not have a monopoly on bad behavior.
Testosterone is not inherently bad, estrogen is not inherently good.
You need to step back, stop making this men vs women, and make it about building a healthy team.
If you anticipate problems, you'll get them. IF you go in with the attitude that you're going to be building a healthy team, you will build a healthy team.
If any issues arise, address them as they arise, and don't accept nonsense.
Back to my first point.
Isn't your assumption that this woman can't handle herself a bit sexist on your part as well?
Step back, reevaluate the situation, make changes that need to be made, correct behavior NOW and THEN introduce the new teammate. But do not allow your own biases to creep in. Hire the person, and deal with any issues that arise swiftly, and harshly, with trips to HR if necessary.
4
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Mister Positive♦
8 hours ago
@JeffC suggested reading What “comments” are not . . .. But yes, you are right that the Question itself is piling many comments that should go... If you see such things again feel free to flag the comments as "no longer needed" or whatever it applies (as I just did with some of the comments under the Q).
– DarkCygnus
7 hours ago
2
OP has updated question to explain that she has no control over IT team and attempts to address their behaviour via management etc. have failed. This means that fixing the situation before hiring does not seem possible, and "anticipating problems" (and trying to mitigate them) is actually the right thing to do.
– Ergwun
7 hours ago
"too weak to handle herself" in toxic atmosphere, vs. "willing to start working somewhere where you have to do that as integral part of your job"... Also, women produce testosterone as well, so I actually think referring to that hormone is a gender-neutral way to describe that certain kind of atmosphere, because one of the roles of the hormone, both in men and in women, is related to sex and libido.
– hyde
3 mins ago
add a comment |
First off, don't assume that the woman you intend to hire is too weak to handle herself.
We have two women working here, and I wouldn't want to take on either one in a verbal conflict. One of them could probably take me in a physical conflict too, and curses far more than I do.
Second, don't assume the team will react poorly. There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Third, avoid sexism on your own part..... This line disturbs me a bit.
•The atmosphere is extremely "testosterony". Jokes are told that should never be told in the workplace
That's a rather sexist point of view that implies that there's something inherently wrong with male hormones. Honestly, if you were at my workplace with that attitude, you'd not be well received, principally by the woman I mentioned above. Also, if the behavior is unacceptable, why is it being accepted? Honestly, if it's that bad, it should be addressed before hiring ANYONE, male or female, to that team.
Men do not have a monopoly on bad behavior.
Testosterone is not inherently bad, estrogen is not inherently good.
You need to step back, stop making this men vs women, and make it about building a healthy team.
If you anticipate problems, you'll get them. IF you go in with the attitude that you're going to be building a healthy team, you will build a healthy team.
If any issues arise, address them as they arise, and don't accept nonsense.
Back to my first point.
Isn't your assumption that this woman can't handle herself a bit sexist on your part as well?
Step back, reevaluate the situation, make changes that need to be made, correct behavior NOW and THEN introduce the new teammate. But do not allow your own biases to creep in. Hire the person, and deal with any issues that arise swiftly, and harshly, with trips to HR if necessary.
4
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Mister Positive♦
8 hours ago
@JeffC suggested reading What “comments” are not . . .. But yes, you are right that the Question itself is piling many comments that should go... If you see such things again feel free to flag the comments as "no longer needed" or whatever it applies (as I just did with some of the comments under the Q).
– DarkCygnus
7 hours ago
2
OP has updated question to explain that she has no control over IT team and attempts to address their behaviour via management etc. have failed. This means that fixing the situation before hiring does not seem possible, and "anticipating problems" (and trying to mitigate them) is actually the right thing to do.
– Ergwun
7 hours ago
"too weak to handle herself" in toxic atmosphere, vs. "willing to start working somewhere where you have to do that as integral part of your job"... Also, women produce testosterone as well, so I actually think referring to that hormone is a gender-neutral way to describe that certain kind of atmosphere, because one of the roles of the hormone, both in men and in women, is related to sex and libido.
– hyde
3 mins ago
add a comment |
First off, don't assume that the woman you intend to hire is too weak to handle herself.
We have two women working here, and I wouldn't want to take on either one in a verbal conflict. One of them could probably take me in a physical conflict too, and curses far more than I do.
Second, don't assume the team will react poorly. There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Third, avoid sexism on your own part..... This line disturbs me a bit.
•The atmosphere is extremely "testosterony". Jokes are told that should never be told in the workplace
That's a rather sexist point of view that implies that there's something inherently wrong with male hormones. Honestly, if you were at my workplace with that attitude, you'd not be well received, principally by the woman I mentioned above. Also, if the behavior is unacceptable, why is it being accepted? Honestly, if it's that bad, it should be addressed before hiring ANYONE, male or female, to that team.
Men do not have a monopoly on bad behavior.
Testosterone is not inherently bad, estrogen is not inherently good.
You need to step back, stop making this men vs women, and make it about building a healthy team.
If you anticipate problems, you'll get them. IF you go in with the attitude that you're going to be building a healthy team, you will build a healthy team.
If any issues arise, address them as they arise, and don't accept nonsense.
Back to my first point.
Isn't your assumption that this woman can't handle herself a bit sexist on your part as well?
Step back, reevaluate the situation, make changes that need to be made, correct behavior NOW and THEN introduce the new teammate. But do not allow your own biases to creep in. Hire the person, and deal with any issues that arise swiftly, and harshly, with trips to HR if necessary.
First off, don't assume that the woman you intend to hire is too weak to handle herself.
We have two women working here, and I wouldn't want to take on either one in a verbal conflict. One of them could probably take me in a physical conflict too, and curses far more than I do.
Second, don't assume the team will react poorly. There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Third, avoid sexism on your own part..... This line disturbs me a bit.
•The atmosphere is extremely "testosterony". Jokes are told that should never be told in the workplace
That's a rather sexist point of view that implies that there's something inherently wrong with male hormones. Honestly, if you were at my workplace with that attitude, you'd not be well received, principally by the woman I mentioned above. Also, if the behavior is unacceptable, why is it being accepted? Honestly, if it's that bad, it should be addressed before hiring ANYONE, male or female, to that team.
Men do not have a monopoly on bad behavior.
Testosterone is not inherently bad, estrogen is not inherently good.
You need to step back, stop making this men vs women, and make it about building a healthy team.
If you anticipate problems, you'll get them. IF you go in with the attitude that you're going to be building a healthy team, you will build a healthy team.
If any issues arise, address them as they arise, and don't accept nonsense.
Back to my first point.
Isn't your assumption that this woman can't handle herself a bit sexist on your part as well?
Step back, reevaluate the situation, make changes that need to be made, correct behavior NOW and THEN introduce the new teammate. But do not allow your own biases to creep in. Hire the person, and deal with any issues that arise swiftly, and harshly, with trips to HR if necessary.
answered 11 hours ago
Richard URichard U
97.8k72263390
97.8k72263390
4
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Mister Positive♦
8 hours ago
@JeffC suggested reading What “comments” are not . . .. But yes, you are right that the Question itself is piling many comments that should go... If you see such things again feel free to flag the comments as "no longer needed" or whatever it applies (as I just did with some of the comments under the Q).
– DarkCygnus
7 hours ago
2
OP has updated question to explain that she has no control over IT team and attempts to address their behaviour via management etc. have failed. This means that fixing the situation before hiring does not seem possible, and "anticipating problems" (and trying to mitigate them) is actually the right thing to do.
– Ergwun
7 hours ago
"too weak to handle herself" in toxic atmosphere, vs. "willing to start working somewhere where you have to do that as integral part of your job"... Also, women produce testosterone as well, so I actually think referring to that hormone is a gender-neutral way to describe that certain kind of atmosphere, because one of the roles of the hormone, both in men and in women, is related to sex and libido.
– hyde
3 mins ago
add a comment |
4
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Mister Positive♦
8 hours ago
@JeffC suggested reading What “comments” are not . . .. But yes, you are right that the Question itself is piling many comments that should go... If you see such things again feel free to flag the comments as "no longer needed" or whatever it applies (as I just did with some of the comments under the Q).
– DarkCygnus
7 hours ago
2
OP has updated question to explain that she has no control over IT team and attempts to address their behaviour via management etc. have failed. This means that fixing the situation before hiring does not seem possible, and "anticipating problems" (and trying to mitigate them) is actually the right thing to do.
– Ergwun
7 hours ago
"too weak to handle herself" in toxic atmosphere, vs. "willing to start working somewhere where you have to do that as integral part of your job"... Also, women produce testosterone as well, so I actually think referring to that hormone is a gender-neutral way to describe that certain kind of atmosphere, because one of the roles of the hormone, both in men and in women, is related to sex and libido.
– hyde
3 mins ago
4
4
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Mister Positive♦
8 hours ago
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Mister Positive♦
8 hours ago
@JeffC suggested reading What “comments” are not . . .. But yes, you are right that the Question itself is piling many comments that should go... If you see such things again feel free to flag the comments as "no longer needed" or whatever it applies (as I just did with some of the comments under the Q).
– DarkCygnus
7 hours ago
@JeffC suggested reading What “comments” are not . . .. But yes, you are right that the Question itself is piling many comments that should go... If you see such things again feel free to flag the comments as "no longer needed" or whatever it applies (as I just did with some of the comments under the Q).
– DarkCygnus
7 hours ago
2
2
OP has updated question to explain that she has no control over IT team and attempts to address their behaviour via management etc. have failed. This means that fixing the situation before hiring does not seem possible, and "anticipating problems" (and trying to mitigate them) is actually the right thing to do.
– Ergwun
7 hours ago
OP has updated question to explain that she has no control over IT team and attempts to address their behaviour via management etc. have failed. This means that fixing the situation before hiring does not seem possible, and "anticipating problems" (and trying to mitigate them) is actually the right thing to do.
– Ergwun
7 hours ago
"too weak to handle herself" in toxic atmosphere, vs. "willing to start working somewhere where you have to do that as integral part of your job"... Also, women produce testosterone as well, so I actually think referring to that hormone is a gender-neutral way to describe that certain kind of atmosphere, because one of the roles of the hormone, both in men and in women, is related to sex and libido.
– hyde
3 mins ago
"too weak to handle herself" in toxic atmosphere, vs. "willing to start working somewhere where you have to do that as integral part of your job"... Also, women produce testosterone as well, so I actually think referring to that hormone is a gender-neutral way to describe that certain kind of atmosphere, because one of the roles of the hormone, both in men and in women, is related to sex and libido.
– hyde
3 mins ago
add a comment |
You want to make the situation clear when you offer the position (if not in the interview before). There are some women who will decide the job isn't for them. But there are others who would be willing to take the job and that situation. You want to know before hiring this candidate which one she thinks she is, and let her decide if this is a good job for her.
If she decides this is a job she wants to take on, then you offer support and ways for her to mitigate the problem, perhaps by going above their manager when necessary. (As a women in tech, I still believe that most of the most sub-human of co-workers can learn to respect competence.) But for the actual figuring out how to make that happen - that will have to be up to the person you hire. They just need to know going in that that is part of the job, perhaps the biggest part.
If the best person for this job is a woman, you absolutely want to hire her. Because as long as the only people they need to respect and work with are men, and their manager supports them in that, they will continue their present behavior. If they must work with a woman, there is some hope that the right hire can start changing that dynamic.
3
I wrote this in my answer, but if you're in the US, if you make the situation clear to women, you must also make it clear to men.
– RCA
11 hours ago
1
@RCA Does that still apply if you make the situation clear after you present an offer? I would only ever bring it up with someone after we had decided we want to hire them.
– David K
11 hours ago
3
@DavidK Interesting question - I don't know, but my guess is that if your practice systematically causes some protected class of people to not accept a job offer, that's illegal.
– RCA
11 hours ago
@RCA Wait—but in this situation, giving the same explanation to all applicants of all genders would also likely result in a protected class of people being much less likely to accept the job offer. The explanation is the same, but it has vastly different consequences depending on the applicant's gender.
– Wowfunhappy
8 hours ago
Wowfunhappy - I dunno. I do think that the answer @RCA made is probably the better one.
– thursdaysgeek
7 hours ago
add a comment |
You want to make the situation clear when you offer the position (if not in the interview before). There are some women who will decide the job isn't for them. But there are others who would be willing to take the job and that situation. You want to know before hiring this candidate which one she thinks she is, and let her decide if this is a good job for her.
If she decides this is a job she wants to take on, then you offer support and ways for her to mitigate the problem, perhaps by going above their manager when necessary. (As a women in tech, I still believe that most of the most sub-human of co-workers can learn to respect competence.) But for the actual figuring out how to make that happen - that will have to be up to the person you hire. They just need to know going in that that is part of the job, perhaps the biggest part.
If the best person for this job is a woman, you absolutely want to hire her. Because as long as the only people they need to respect and work with are men, and their manager supports them in that, they will continue their present behavior. If they must work with a woman, there is some hope that the right hire can start changing that dynamic.
3
I wrote this in my answer, but if you're in the US, if you make the situation clear to women, you must also make it clear to men.
– RCA
11 hours ago
1
@RCA Does that still apply if you make the situation clear after you present an offer? I would only ever bring it up with someone after we had decided we want to hire them.
– David K
11 hours ago
3
@DavidK Interesting question - I don't know, but my guess is that if your practice systematically causes some protected class of people to not accept a job offer, that's illegal.
– RCA
11 hours ago
@RCA Wait—but in this situation, giving the same explanation to all applicants of all genders would also likely result in a protected class of people being much less likely to accept the job offer. The explanation is the same, but it has vastly different consequences depending on the applicant's gender.
– Wowfunhappy
8 hours ago
Wowfunhappy - I dunno. I do think that the answer @RCA made is probably the better one.
– thursdaysgeek
7 hours ago
add a comment |
You want to make the situation clear when you offer the position (if not in the interview before). There are some women who will decide the job isn't for them. But there are others who would be willing to take the job and that situation. You want to know before hiring this candidate which one she thinks she is, and let her decide if this is a good job for her.
If she decides this is a job she wants to take on, then you offer support and ways for her to mitigate the problem, perhaps by going above their manager when necessary. (As a women in tech, I still believe that most of the most sub-human of co-workers can learn to respect competence.) But for the actual figuring out how to make that happen - that will have to be up to the person you hire. They just need to know going in that that is part of the job, perhaps the biggest part.
If the best person for this job is a woman, you absolutely want to hire her. Because as long as the only people they need to respect and work with are men, and their manager supports them in that, they will continue their present behavior. If they must work with a woman, there is some hope that the right hire can start changing that dynamic.
You want to make the situation clear when you offer the position (if not in the interview before). There are some women who will decide the job isn't for them. But there are others who would be willing to take the job and that situation. You want to know before hiring this candidate which one she thinks she is, and let her decide if this is a good job for her.
If she decides this is a job she wants to take on, then you offer support and ways for her to mitigate the problem, perhaps by going above their manager when necessary. (As a women in tech, I still believe that most of the most sub-human of co-workers can learn to respect competence.) But for the actual figuring out how to make that happen - that will have to be up to the person you hire. They just need to know going in that that is part of the job, perhaps the biggest part.
If the best person for this job is a woman, you absolutely want to hire her. Because as long as the only people they need to respect and work with are men, and their manager supports them in that, they will continue their present behavior. If they must work with a woman, there is some hope that the right hire can start changing that dynamic.
edited 11 hours ago
answered 12 hours ago
thursdaysgeekthursdaysgeek
31.3k1553116
31.3k1553116
3
I wrote this in my answer, but if you're in the US, if you make the situation clear to women, you must also make it clear to men.
– RCA
11 hours ago
1
@RCA Does that still apply if you make the situation clear after you present an offer? I would only ever bring it up with someone after we had decided we want to hire them.
– David K
11 hours ago
3
@DavidK Interesting question - I don't know, but my guess is that if your practice systematically causes some protected class of people to not accept a job offer, that's illegal.
– RCA
11 hours ago
@RCA Wait—but in this situation, giving the same explanation to all applicants of all genders would also likely result in a protected class of people being much less likely to accept the job offer. The explanation is the same, but it has vastly different consequences depending on the applicant's gender.
– Wowfunhappy
8 hours ago
Wowfunhappy - I dunno. I do think that the answer @RCA made is probably the better one.
– thursdaysgeek
7 hours ago
add a comment |
3
I wrote this in my answer, but if you're in the US, if you make the situation clear to women, you must also make it clear to men.
– RCA
11 hours ago
1
@RCA Does that still apply if you make the situation clear after you present an offer? I would only ever bring it up with someone after we had decided we want to hire them.
– David K
11 hours ago
3
@DavidK Interesting question - I don't know, but my guess is that if your practice systematically causes some protected class of people to not accept a job offer, that's illegal.
– RCA
11 hours ago
@RCA Wait—but in this situation, giving the same explanation to all applicants of all genders would also likely result in a protected class of people being much less likely to accept the job offer. The explanation is the same, but it has vastly different consequences depending on the applicant's gender.
– Wowfunhappy
8 hours ago
Wowfunhappy - I dunno. I do think that the answer @RCA made is probably the better one.
– thursdaysgeek
7 hours ago
3
3
I wrote this in my answer, but if you're in the US, if you make the situation clear to women, you must also make it clear to men.
– RCA
11 hours ago
I wrote this in my answer, but if you're in the US, if you make the situation clear to women, you must also make it clear to men.
– RCA
11 hours ago
1
1
@RCA Does that still apply if you make the situation clear after you present an offer? I would only ever bring it up with someone after we had decided we want to hire them.
– David K
11 hours ago
@RCA Does that still apply if you make the situation clear after you present an offer? I would only ever bring it up with someone after we had decided we want to hire them.
– David K
11 hours ago
3
3
@DavidK Interesting question - I don't know, but my guess is that if your practice systematically causes some protected class of people to not accept a job offer, that's illegal.
– RCA
11 hours ago
@DavidK Interesting question - I don't know, but my guess is that if your practice systematically causes some protected class of people to not accept a job offer, that's illegal.
– RCA
11 hours ago
@RCA Wait—but in this situation, giving the same explanation to all applicants of all genders would also likely result in a protected class of people being much less likely to accept the job offer. The explanation is the same, but it has vastly different consequences depending on the applicant's gender.
– Wowfunhappy
8 hours ago
@RCA Wait—but in this situation, giving the same explanation to all applicants of all genders would also likely result in a protected class of people being much less likely to accept the job offer. The explanation is the same, but it has vastly different consequences depending on the applicant's gender.
– Wowfunhappy
8 hours ago
Wowfunhappy - I dunno. I do think that the answer @RCA made is probably the better one.
– thursdaysgeek
7 hours ago
Wowfunhappy - I dunno. I do think that the answer @RCA made is probably the better one.
– thursdaysgeek
7 hours ago
add a comment |
If you are anticipating your potential new hires having problems, Take a few measures to give them a helping hand.
Let your new employee know the procedures for dealing with anything untoward (not just the inevitable problems) and be prepared to back them up if need be. Let them know your complaints procedure. This should really be part of your onboarding procedure for anyone.
Also: why are you only dealing with this now? And why are you only trying to deal with your new employee adapting to the problem rather than the problem itself?
You do mention that it's not your team and that you have no control over their behaviour. You also don't mention how far their behaviour goes so I'm going to assume they're incel-y but no (known) sexual harrassment.
Why have you not gone to HR about these creating a hostile work environment? This team sounds like the kind of lawsuit/#metoo ticking time bomb that HR is made to deal with. You have women in your company having problems with these guys right now. Your company could potentially be one lawsuit or hashtag away from being buried.
In summary:
You need to go to HR about this team. Now.
add a comment |
If you are anticipating your potential new hires having problems, Take a few measures to give them a helping hand.
Let your new employee know the procedures for dealing with anything untoward (not just the inevitable problems) and be prepared to back them up if need be. Let them know your complaints procedure. This should really be part of your onboarding procedure for anyone.
Also: why are you only dealing with this now? And why are you only trying to deal with your new employee adapting to the problem rather than the problem itself?
You do mention that it's not your team and that you have no control over their behaviour. You also don't mention how far their behaviour goes so I'm going to assume they're incel-y but no (known) sexual harrassment.
Why have you not gone to HR about these creating a hostile work environment? This team sounds like the kind of lawsuit/#metoo ticking time bomb that HR is made to deal with. You have women in your company having problems with these guys right now. Your company could potentially be one lawsuit or hashtag away from being buried.
In summary:
You need to go to HR about this team. Now.
add a comment |
If you are anticipating your potential new hires having problems, Take a few measures to give them a helping hand.
Let your new employee know the procedures for dealing with anything untoward (not just the inevitable problems) and be prepared to back them up if need be. Let them know your complaints procedure. This should really be part of your onboarding procedure for anyone.
Also: why are you only dealing with this now? And why are you only trying to deal with your new employee adapting to the problem rather than the problem itself?
You do mention that it's not your team and that you have no control over their behaviour. You also don't mention how far their behaviour goes so I'm going to assume they're incel-y but no (known) sexual harrassment.
Why have you not gone to HR about these creating a hostile work environment? This team sounds like the kind of lawsuit/#metoo ticking time bomb that HR is made to deal with. You have women in your company having problems with these guys right now. Your company could potentially be one lawsuit or hashtag away from being buried.
In summary:
You need to go to HR about this team. Now.
If you are anticipating your potential new hires having problems, Take a few measures to give them a helping hand.
Let your new employee know the procedures for dealing with anything untoward (not just the inevitable problems) and be prepared to back them up if need be. Let them know your complaints procedure. This should really be part of your onboarding procedure for anyone.
Also: why are you only dealing with this now? And why are you only trying to deal with your new employee adapting to the problem rather than the problem itself?
You do mention that it's not your team and that you have no control over their behaviour. You also don't mention how far their behaviour goes so I'm going to assume they're incel-y but no (known) sexual harrassment.
Why have you not gone to HR about these creating a hostile work environment? This team sounds like the kind of lawsuit/#metoo ticking time bomb that HR is made to deal with. You have women in your company having problems with these guys right now. Your company could potentially be one lawsuit or hashtag away from being buried.
In summary:
You need to go to HR about this team. Now.
edited 4 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
520520
4,498725
4,498725
add a comment |
add a comment |
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2
@EdHeal, it's not like they are living in a cave, far from civilization. They do projects with women (developers, PMs, etc.) from other teams. This hasn't helped so far, so I'm not sure why a woman among them could help.
– BigMadAndy
12 hours ago
1
Are you in the United States? There are laws in the US that protect women from discriminated against.
– jcmack
12 hours ago
13
@RichardU: it's not about using foul language or farting in meetings. It's about not taking women in consideration, rolling eyes when they speak, interrupting them, excluding them. If it was about them telling "sh*t" too frequently, I wouldn't care.
– BigMadAndy
12 hours ago
1
Could you please use a country tag and tell us about the average age and the junior to senior ratio in that team? It might help to know if it's a rural area or in a city above 500k population.also, were the women they interacted with senior or junior (age as well as professionally)and in the same or different profession to the IT team members?
– DigitalBlade969
11 hours ago
2
Have you (or others) reported this behavior to your HR dept? What, if anything, have they done?
– JeffC
9 hours ago